David: I've heard you mention music threading through your life. Was there a specific moment when acting became your primary focus?
Gale: My entry into acting was somewhat unconventional.
I was pursuing studies with the goal of financing film projects, but eventually, I couldn't sustain the expenses. I took a break from school and never fully returned. A close friend from my studies, who was residing with me in my workshop in east Oakland, met someone at an art exhibition featuring a friend's paintings.
Through this connection, I also met new people and became friends with them. My introduction to the theatrical world came indirectly. A theater director, whose life revolved around stage work, spoke with me about it. At the time, I perceived plays solely as literature, having never experienced a live performance.
David: That's an interesting path.
You mentioned your friend Susy Landau. What led to your move from your living space?
Gale: Yes, Susy Landau was a dear friend. My apartment building was under the ownership of the archdiocese, and it was supposed to be protected as a live-work space by a city ordinance.
However, the archdiocese sold the property, and it was converted into a parking garage, forcing me to relocate.
David: Aside from that, you're a remarkable actor. You then transitioned to Los Angeles. Los Angeles is a world quite distinct from San Francisco, as we both know.
Gale: When I secured my first professional acting engagement, I was quite financially constrained, with only about five dollars to my name.
David: Anytime.
David: Television is undergoing a significant transformation regarding the representation of gay individuals. Were you watching much television during that period?
Gale: The only instances I recall seeing anything on a television screen were when I would visit a sports bar to watch European football matches.
David: Did these broader societal shifts enter your awareness?
We posed a similar question to Rachel Maddow.
Gale: I do remember that. I recall an announcement related to Ellen DeGeneres coming out. Following that, there was news about her show being canceled, or something being removed from broadcast, which was attributed to her public statement.
The fascinating aspect for me was that she made the statement while in character. Later, when I began to seriously consider portraying a homosexual character on television, those recollections resurfaced during my research and various conversations.
David: At that point, did you have an agent?
Gale: I had a manager.
And then you received the script for 'Queer as Folk.' Was this a common occurrence? Were you receiving numerous scripts?
Gale: No, not at all. The circumstances were quite straightforward. I genuinely enjoyed my studies and collaborating with actors and directors.
However, the daunting process of auditioning and the pressure to secure work were beginning to wear me down. I had decided to make a move, either to New York or Chicago. I was prepared to flip a coin, to make a decisive choice and fully immerse myself in stage acting and further my learning, essentially heading to a promised land.
It was at this juncture that I was sent the script for the pilot episode of 'QAF.'
David: Do you recall the specific scene included in that montage? What was depicted?
Gale: It featured scenes within a club and people running through the streets of Manchester.
There were a few brief clips and snippets. Then there was a particular scene. I believe that perhaps because it felt so daunting and so unlikely to ever materialize, and also because I had seen the performance of the character in the US adaptation, it fueled my determination.
I decided to put my name forward for it. And I did. My thought process at the time was very much a farewell gesture to Los Angeles.
David: You committed far more than just putting your name forward. You mentioned it was terrifying. What exactly was terrifying about the prospect?
Gale: I'm often hindered by my own internal state.
Consequently, I tend to overanalyze everything. Initially, I simply read with a casting director.
David: So, this opportunity arose. Do you remember your feelings when you were informed you had secured the part?
Gale: I remember being informed that I had been cast as Brian Kinney.
What are your plans now? I simply went for it.
This marked a new phase in my life. I had befriended gay individuals during my youth and had gay acquaintances within my church, as well as friends of friends who were gay. I felt I was being drawn into a new sphere, and I found it quite inspiring.
David: You never really had a consistent acting role that could provide financial stability.
Gale: That period likely lasted around four weeks.
So, yes, I was still very, very inexperienced. David: You then boarded a plane for Toronto. Had you visited Toronto before?
David: Okay. What unfolded next?
Gale: I went to the airport, left the airport, took a car into the city, and proceeded to the production office.
I was immediately informed that due to an issue with my passport or work permit, I needed to travel to Buffalo to re-enter Canada from the US. So, I got in a car, drove to Buffalo, and crossed the border back. Then, I was officially in Canada. Following that, I had fittings and met Sheila Hockin, Dan, and Ron - I had met them previously, but this was my formal arrival.
I spent the weekend resting and then essentially took the plunge.
Gale: No, no. We read together for the network. We performed a couple of scenes together in the room, and then... we had some dialogue, and saw each other briefly before our first day on set. It was essentially from zero to...
Did you know he was gay, and did he know you were straight when you were working together?
I believe I became aware of who was who and their circumstances relatively early on. David: Perhaps something useful is that you mentioned having no "notches on your belt." Did that play a role?
And we had to make it convincing, naturally, as we were depicting intimacy. I was the one driving the interaction, and with a snap, he was not, but we had to engage with each other in a way that made sense given our characters' backgrounds and understanding. I think we both quickly outlined the actions and then utilized whatever technical means were available to portray the scene, and then sought to find some genuine emotion to imbue it with.
David: Was your experience similar, an evolution in how you approached these scenes over time, allowing for more thoughtful execution?
Gale: Absolutely.
Part of it involved getting up to speed. It certainly became a factor. However, it was challenging for me initially to make requests of the people I was collaborating with, whether they were actors, directors, or producers, to acknowledge that this was not a fight scene. You have to overlay the technical execution onto the emotional core.
How many takes would be necessary?
David: It turns out you had an almost intuitive grasp of hitting your marks, as much of acting involves transitioning smoothly to the next action. This was fortunate for me for several reasons. We truly bonded; we became friends.
We maintained a friendship. We could converse about a multitude of topics at any time, and we would meet outside of work to listen to music or watch films, which was quite necessary. Let's discuss Sharon. Sharon, among her many qualities, and I don't say this lightly, is a formidable presence, in the best possible way.
A significant part of that stemmed from her relationship with her brother, Jack. But Sharon was truly the core of that show, not only for the characters but for the actors as well. I feel that out of all the work we accomplished, and the scenes I was part of, the scene that resonates most deeply with me is one I shared with her.
In it, Sharon, playing Debbie, confronts my character about his fear, self-deception, and self-destructive behavior, but then we share a joint, and everything feels grounded again. He had a mission. There was a subtle Machiavellian undertone to him. So, these are elements that are strictly on the page, and I was merely reciting those words.
David: We observe this pattern in nearly every character that appears for more than a few minutes; writers tend to adapt their writing to your performance.
Did you ever feel that you were influencing Brian's development, that his evolution was a direct result of your portrayal?
And we know the outcome. Have you revisited it since it aired? I believe that in terms of the writing and the narrative structure, making such a significant gesture, doing something that, as a character, was partly driven by his philosophy of freedom, truth, and honesty, was also, in many ways, a spectacle.
A considerable portion of it was a display of one-upmanship. Gale: Not much advance notice, no. Some, but not a lot. I knew we were heading to the dance, as we were choreographing. Because he was my friend. It always will be, as that was a momentous occasion for me, and for all of us.
David: Were you aware of the significance it held for the audience?
Gale: In the initial stages, I heard some feedback.
A lot of it seemed very theoretical to me because it was difficult for me to step back and gain perspective. I was still trying to process everything and avoid making mistakes or embarrassing myself. Perhaps after we returned for the second season. Occasionally, someone would approach me on the street and share something, and I still felt quite uncertain about my place in that world.
I think a portion of that is instinctual. I simply had to put it aside.
David: And this was the dawn of the internet. Many within the LGBT community, particularly gay men, viewed this as mere assimilation, questioning the necessity of marriage. Yet, younger individuals asserted its importance as a reflection of their identity.
It was a grassroots movement. Civil unions existed in some places, and marriage in Massachusetts had just commenced when the show aired; Canada was where the on-screen marriage had to take place. Did you have a sense that this foreshadowed future developments while you were conveying these narratives?
Gale: The narratives we explored that eventually became, or were, in some ways, prophetic in their real-time manifestation later on—the concept of marriage, the idea, the potential—yes, my character characterized that as assimilation.
He reacted to it with a degree of disdain. For me, as an actor, this stemmed from his understanding of his family. Why are you wasting your time? However, during the production and filming of those storylines, we still felt quite removed from the mainstream, particularly concerning other television programming and the types of stories being told in primetime, whatever that entailed.
I felt like we were the overlooked ones, and everything we were doing was a private showing. Looking back now, do you perceive the impact it had? Those are your fellow citizens; they are people who might live next door, attend church with you, or whom you grew up with. It gradually becomes apparent.
It settles in. Babylon—it erupts.
I discussed this with Ron and Dan. This is happening to our characters. Did that resonate with you? Did it take you back and make you realize that for those people in that club, the experience was very similar to what you filmed a decade ago?
Gale: I believe what occurred in Orlando certainly brought to mind that storyline we were filming, involving an attack on a club.
David: It is.
We have one more phase to cover. Would you like some water, or are you comfortable?
David: Yes. Could we get some? Wherever you wish to proceed is fine with me. Gale: [Receives a cup of water] Thank you. Thank you very much. That shifted how the world perceived you.
So, this is what I genuinely want to discuss with you.
That was a significant development for someone who was essentially undecided about their next step, considering Chicago or New York. Gale: Being on television altered the trajectory of my life and my way of existing in the world.
Immediately, I was able to settle my student loan debt. To be candid, the IRS deducted the amount of my first paycheck, [laughs] which was beneficial as I was falling significantly behind. And that first television job, working in that medium, allowed me to find a new community of people, akin to what one experiences in theater, but the circumstances were extraordinary, the story was often extreme, though not daily, but frequently the narratives we were portraying were intense.
My character was an extreme character. His approach to life was relentless. He was fully engaged at all times, and consequently, many of the scenes I performed were integral to that, telling that story. It demanded considerable effort, long hours, and often uncertainty about whether I was performing adequately.
However, I was somewhat self-reliant, as I was a working actor. I was an adult capable of managing my expenses and contributing to something. That was the immediate consequence. I believe the secondary impact is still something I experience today. There was a level of attention from strangers who presumed I was the person depicted in the glass box, that I was a negative representation of that individual, that I was somehow abhorrent, that my performance was sub-human, or whatever their interpretation was.
Speculation arose about whether I was a closeted individual, internally struggling, a gay man in hiding, while portraying the most overt, out-and-proud gay man on television, and how preposterous that notion seemed.
Gale: Essentially surreal. Gale: More so then than now.
It truly tested me. Can you genuinely do it, man? Can you really pull it off? And then, part of the reaction was, how could you possibly portray that role, man? How could you manage all of that homosexual interaction that you depicted? Sex is simply sex.
David: After you concluded your portrayal of Brian Kinney, did your feelings towards that character undergo any change?
Gale: Having played Brian Kinney, my feelings about him have evolved to the point where I wish I could revisit and improve upon certain aspects of my performance.
Not all of it. But I wish I could have embodied him with greater strength. I understand certain facets of his personality more profoundly now, with the benefit of age and hindsight. I simply desire to go back and add more depth and nuance to those elements. At times, does it become irritating?
Do I feel shame or regret about having participated? Absolutely not. Many individuals openly express their emotions, while others do not. It must be challenging to be someone whom, even from across the street, people recognize and single out from a crowd. You forfeit anonymity when you achieve that level of widespread recognition that television provides.
However, the counterbalance to that is that the sole reason my work is visible and people recognize me is because I've managed to find a place in the world where I desire to be, doing the work I wish to do, so the reward is quite substantial.
I recall being about seven feet away from Lou Reed once and feeling as though my knees were about to disintegrate into my shoes.
Regardless of the reception—good, bad, or indifferent—it had an impact on them; it moved them; it touched them in a way that compelled them to express it to you. I get a little overwhelmed. It feels rewarding to know that some people, in some places, at certain times, have appreciated the work we did, that I was a part of it, and felt something genuine that they could connect with and feel good about.
David: And all of that, if you will, represents the broader picture.
The distinctly specific element and power of this show that set it apart from anything that came before it, and arguably anything that has followed, is its exploration of sexuality. Peter made a similar observation. An effeminate man, but unapologetic about it. David: Well, it certainly did, for many years.
How about for you? And we do it because we need to reach more people, certainly on one level, but we also do it because it feels incredibly good.
Brian, as I understood him, and the way I allowed him to inhabit me, was... it was quite straightforward. I reside in Pittsburgh. I am attracted to men. Not solely in a platonic sense. And my approach works. So, I desire intimacy. I enjoy intimacy frequently.
I have fairly good taste. However, I was quite aware of the gay lifestyle prior to the show. I've had intense advances from gay men who attempted to influence me, and many of my personal inspirations are gay. William Burroughs, Lou Reed. Well, perhaps Lou Reed identifies as bisexual.
The point is, gay life is no longer as shocking. Some posit that Jesus is the rock or the anchor. I contend that your friends and family serve as your anchor. No offense intended to George Jones.
I am heterosexual, but the character held too much significance for me to intertwine his world with my personal life. As a relative unknown, I was able to successfully deflect such inquiries. I believe it might have contributed to presenting Brian as a credible gay man.
Perhaps not. Regardless of how it played out, it has been beyond my control for a considerable period. Criticism can be a disorienting experience, akin to a potent drug that turns negative. When it's adverse, you wish for it to cease, and when it's positive, you can't get enough.
When preparing for a scene, the paramount objective is to maintain emotional openness and remain present with your scene partner.
You want to avoid allowing your own self-consciousness to disrupt the flow of creative energy, enabling you to act and react authentically to the scene's essence. I commenced my studies at... Prior to that, I had never considered acting as a potential pursuit. Because of his remarkable imaginative world populated with eccentric companions.
He consistently offers valuable counsel. If an individual is unwilling to collaborate with me due to my portrayal of a gay character, I have no desire to work with them. They can depart. It's undeniable that if a person possesses the charisma to engage and excite you, then half the battle is already won, much like all great leaders demonstrated this quality.
Let's be realistic; it's happening, and people are beginning to awaken to some extent. I believe, as I mentioned earlier, that the impact of revealing truth to people is undeniable. It facilitates self-understanding, and with self-understanding comes the ability to comprehend those around you.
Subsequently, you can begin to release the extraneous negativity that fuels conflicts such as world wars, racism, stereotypes, and prejudice. Brian is an archetypal figure, much like Don Juan, which is how I interpret him. He's a joy to portray. He advocates unapologetically for his freedom.
He holds nothing back. Something I'm learning is that you cannot dislike the character you portray. If I perceive my character as an unlikeable individual, that's all that will be conveyed. He is depicted in an extreme manner, but that doesn't negate his humanity. No apologies, no regrets.
My primary interests lie not with television, per se. You must develop an affinity for your character, as it's unlikely anyone else will if you don't. After I began to explore the essence of an actor's role, I dedicated three years to study before I mustered the courage to audition.
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